So what are you guys going to do now?....

deusex2
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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby deusex2 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:07 pm

Because the Poll results thread is locked and because this one is a direct result of the poll, I'm posting here a few words for Ethan.

Make no mistake, I'm still going to wait for as long as it's gonna take, but there are very few fans who are as patient and with incoming sandbox MMOs this year, I bet there are going to be even fewer.

So in order to prevent people from leaving and possibly to attract fresh blood, please Ethan, I urge you to suck it up and to start communicating with the community.

Yeah, I'm fully aware, you're a hermit and you'd rather spend that time working on the game, than posting useless crap on your blog or these forums, but isn't about what you like. If anything, it's about what you love-the very same MMO most of us here pledged for, your brain child. You need a way to keep people and to attract more people, which is really hard to do when they see near dead forums and your blog that gets updated once a year or so. The people see this and they think that the project is either dead or just plain too fishy to invest into it.

I'm part of a huge clan, we play different games, the biggest ones are Hawken, with 20 active players and over whooping 100 active players stuck in grindfest, called Warframe. I've posted about this game on more than few occasions in our forums, but nobody was willing to donate, because in their eyes the game was dead.

Which is why I'm saying this again-you need to start communicating, man! You need to start showing signs of life! And I'm not telling you to write detailed reports or video logs about your progress(although I am suggesting this ;) ). Anything would be fine! Even a small twit on stupid twitter once or twice a week is going to help immensely! And it doesn't even have to be about anything in particular, even random stuff is going to do the trick, although the closer to the dev process, the better. Even small stuff, like for example,"our programmer is a lazy arsehole!"

Even that tiny bit is going to improve population, although sharing which features you're working on is going to have much greater impact and once again-few words are enough.

As or what am I going to do, I'm going to finish that thing I've promised to Herko long time a go and I'm gonna switch back into lurking mode, until another S will hit the fan.

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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby Feydikan » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:16 pm

deusex2 wrote:Yeah, I'm fully aware, you're a hermit and you'd rather spend that time working on the game, than posting useless crap on your blog or these forums, but isn't about what you like. If anything, it's about what you love-the very same MMO most of us here pledged for, your brain child. You need a way to keep people and to attract more people, which is really hard to do when they see near dead forums and your blog that gets updated once a year or so. The people see this and they think that the project is either dead or just plain too fishy to invest into it.


+1, and not to mention the only time communication is developed happens to coincidence with when a new campaign is in the process of being started. Interest in the game and its development needs to be a consistent flow of data. No matter how dull or boring it may seem to the staff, it is in the long run the life blood of any crowd sourced venture.


I would also like to add that the removed thread should be placed in an archive that is visible to the public. These are public forums, and the views discussed in that thread were the honest opinions from the coummunity. Due to the fact that you moderated the thread personally Sam, and removed "trollish" comments there is no reason why the thread should have been taken down/archived. The proper tact would have been to thank the community for their participation, and then locked the thread. But that is just the expressed opinion of a person who has been moderating forums for over 13 yrs.
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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby Sam » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:37 pm

Feydikan wrote:
deusex2 wrote:Yeah, I'm fully aware, you're a hermit and you'd rather spend that time working on the game, than posting useless crap on your blog or these forums, but isn't about what you like. If anything, it's about what you love-the very same MMO most of us here pledged for, your brain child. You need a way to keep people and to attract more people, which is really hard to do when they see near dead forums and your blog that gets updated once a year or so. The people see this and they think that the project is either dead or just plain too fishy to invest into it.


+1, and not to mention the only time communication is developed happens to coincidence with when a new campaign is in the process of being started. Interest in the game and its development needs to be a consistent flow of data. No matter how dull or boring it may seem to the staff, it is in the long run the life blood of any crowd sourced venture.


I would also like to add that the removed thread should be placed in an archive that is visible to the public. These are public forums, and the views discussed in that thread were the honest opinions from the coummunity. Due to the fact that you moderated the thread personally Sam, and removed "trollish" comments there is no reason why the thread should have been taken down/archived. The proper tact would have been to thank the community for their participation, and then locked the thread. But that is just the expressed opinion of a person who has been moderating forums for over 13 yrs.


It wasn't a decision that I made. I'm sorry Feydikan, if you really want to view the thread I can send it to you.

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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby EthanC » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:32 pm

deusex2 wrote:Because the Poll results thread is locked and because this one is a direct result of the poll, I'm posting here a few words for Ethan.

Make no mistake, I'm still going to wait for as long as it's gonna take, but there are very few fans who are as patient and with incoming sandbox MMOs this year, I bet there are going to be even fewer.

So in order to prevent people from leaving and possibly to attract fresh blood, please Ethan, I urge you to suck it up and to start communicating with the community.

Yeah, I'm fully aware, you're a hermit and you'd rather spend that time working on the game, than posting useless crap on your blog or these forums, but isn't about what you like. If anything, it's about what you love-the very same MMO most of us here pledged for, your brain child. You need a way to keep people and to attract more people, which is really hard to do when they see near dead forums and your blog that gets updated once a year or so. The people see this and they think that the project is either dead or just plain too fishy to invest into it.

I'm part of a huge clan, we play different games, the biggest ones are Hawken, with 20 active players and over whooping 100 active players stuck in grindfest, called Warframe. I've posted about this game on more than few occasions in our forums, but nobody was willing to donate, because in their eyes the game was dead.

Which is why I'm saying this again-you need to start communicating, man! You need to start showing signs of life! And I'm not telling you to write detailed reports or video logs about your progress(although I am suggesting this ;) ). Anything would be fine! Even a small twit on stupid twitter once or twice a week is going to help immensely! And it doesn't even have to be about anything in particular, even random stuff is going to do the trick, although the closer to the dev process, the better. Even small stuff, like for example,"our programmer is a lazy arsehole!"

Even that tiny bit is going to improve population, although sharing which features you're working on is going to have much greater impact and once again-few words are enough.

As or what am I going to do, I'm going to finish that thing I've promised to Herko long time a go and I'm gonna switch back into lurking mode, until another S will hit the fan.


You guys don't have a reputation of handling what you'd consider "bad news" very well so to speak. You wanted to know what was the hold up, I laid it on the line and told you it was because I lost my lead programmer and the response was "quit making excuses".

And "random stuff" also doesn't "do the trick". I was perfectly content to just keep plugging in new assets for people to play with in the prototype while working on the programming situation, right up until the attitude changed to, "Yeah new doors and walls, big deal. We want new features."

And as far as the comment about "people noticing the forums are dead and not investing", statements like those are pretty much just baseless. The only... only... income this project has right now are the people who are just now finding out about the game and email me asking how they can get alpha account status and aren't even aware the devblog or forums exist. It's not like I'm going to say, "And yes when you're done building a mansion, feel free to jump on over to our public forums and troll some."

I'd like you to listen very carefully to everything below this line before you choose to reply, thank you.

Almost half of the 20% of those who voted no (and this is the funny part) several of the "vocal minority" who felt it necessary to voice their opinions are people who have ,as far as i can prove, so far not contributed a dime, whose contributions bounced, or who contributed then before the campaign ended disputed the charge and kept on using their account status until i realized it.

That guy Walkia who "will no longer support the game"? Dude, you never supported it to begin with. Not a dime.
That other guy who said "i had accepted my money was wasted" who I called out? Still waiting to hear where this mystery contribution ended up, because it certainly didn't go to SGL.

You see my friend, don't usually have to know who they are like I do and you also don't have to put up with seeing them lurking around offering their input week after week even though they are pretty much directly responsible for the fact that Divergence didn't get what it needed from kickstarter and the reason we're struggling right now.

Exactly how accommodating do you think you'd be when you hear, "such and such demands a response to their thread on the forums".

You'd probably just ban them outright and be well within your rights to do so.

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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby Feydikan » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:15 am

Well Ethan, I have paid into this game. 1st Gen Solitus, 100 bucks; original Indiegogo Campaign.

Indiegogo.png


Maybe not a ton of money but when you consider that the majority of my 200+ posts are essays, and the fact that Herko him self jokes that I am almost at his level when it comes to "knowledge" about this game, I think I have more then earned to right to question.

As a simple mod, I have never had access to any information about this game. What I know comes from research, reading and basically "geeking" out with Herko. But when it comes too 'inside' information I don't know jack aside from from stuff Stone told me one night in TS.

That being said, I don't know a 1,500 detonator from a .55 cent one. Aside from a few players here how have expressed the fact they own a 1st gen, or a Veli, the amount they have donated has never been an issue. The REASON they are on these forums is due to the fact they have an interest in the game. And as far as I am concerned that reason alone IS fine. A fan is some one who possibly can't afford to put money into the campaign. but is desperately wanting to. There are a few people here who fit that bill, and I know that ONLY due to the fact they have come to these board and asked how to donate money, or if their would be another Campaign. While they may not have a fiscal tie to the game, it's damn well shore those who stuck around have an emotional tie to it: Be it due to the fact its heralded as being a SWG clone or what ever, they made there homes here waiting for a chance to possibly donate money.

Writing them off or insulting them strikes me like sucking punching a banker for asking questions after you have made your proposal. You are cutting your nose to spite your face, and while they may not have the ability to put into words what they are feeling, or come across course or in a completely negative way, BUT they sure as hell care enough about the project to write the concerns rather then just walk away from it. At some point you need to stop being so defensive and start to look at the bigger picture, and act like an business man and address those concerns in a way that makes you look like you are in control of the situation; not scrambling to do damage control prior to your next Crowd source effort.


But lets put this whole situation into focus shall we?


A month ago, the 'leaders' of your community asked You for more information. Until that point, NO one on these forums (side for one or two people who came here to ask for a refund and were given direction on how to contact you) questioned the this game, the release date, its production and most importantly You. The only thing we asked for, that you can see time and time again in almost every discussion thread was more information. Granted, Most of the discussion threads are like 15+ pages long... I don't expect ANY one to read through that many posts/threads/comments. But I can tell you from first hand Knowledge that almost every one of those threads has a post from Herko's and me in there, and 99.99% of them have at some point in time one of us saying "this is mostly speculation... we are still waiting for information form Ethan so we can get these things figured out".

While the Admins/mods original post may have "stir'd the pot" and brought up some questions or anger over some of the issues that have been boiling above the surface, The truth of the matter is You have NEVER been a part of this community. I have been active daily since April, and the ONLY time you have posted here on a regular basis was when it first came up, indiegogo, and during the Kickstarter. In the time between, you have virtually been a ghost. Still no one spoke ill of you or "verbally attacked you" for the various reasons you have stated. That has only happened the past month, and that is due TO your lack of communication.

Let me be 100% Clear here:

NO serious member on these forums gives a flying FUCK when this game is going to be released.

I don't know where you got that in your head, but No one here cares. We have all accepted the issues you have faced and were ready for a nice long haul. All we wanted was some fat to chew on, to discuss, to write stories about. We were met with silence, empty promises and after almost 4 months with only 2 dev blogs to go buy.... Helio's got the ball rolling and Here we are now.

As I said in the post I wrote to Sam last night when I resigned my Position, If you had instead opened up and talked about your game, answered some questions and actually embraced this community 2 months ago, Not one negative word would have been spoken against you. And if it had been, Your mod team would have defended you, Like we did before, during and after kickstarter. WE would have be here or TS, making a ton of suggestions on how to better market your campaign and spread the word... Just like we did during the Kickstarter... but alas were NEVER given any directions... yet again from you.

Instead we are jaded, and For me, It has NOTHING to do with the game. When I got into this I knew it was going to be a long haul. For me, the problem is how you handled this situation, and the way in which you have chosen to respond to a simple question that was nothing more then some of your biggest fans asking for more information about the game that they loved.

You can believe what ever you want to believe, You can make excuses, point blame and act as if you have been wronged. BUT you only have one person to blame this current predicament: And that is your Self.
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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby Ninja » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:24 am

To be honest Ethan, you could've been in a totally different situation if a little communication was present. Very few people were being negative in any way. When people get stir-crazy with anticipation of this game they will ask questions. After the kickstarter was funded we heard nothing from you for months. With no communication to the fans of the game, you will lose peoples confidence, lose fans, and in the long run, lose funding.

People weren't asking for a complete game. HECK! People don't expect it in a few months or even a year. What do you expect? All we wanted were a few updates and communication. When that is asked for we got the whole "woah is me!" again.

As for me, I will wait. However, don't expect any more support from me. No word of mouth advertising or doantions. You cannot be successful just releasing information on the game when you do funding campaigns.

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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby deusex2 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:07 am

EthanC wrote:
deusex2 wrote:Because the Poll results thread is locked and because this one is a direct result of the poll, I'm posting here a few words for Ethan.

Make no mistake, I'm still going to wait for as long as it's gonna take, but there are very few fans who are as patient and with incoming sandbox MMOs this year, I bet there are going to be even fewer.

So in order to prevent people from leaving and possibly to attract fresh blood, please Ethan, I urge you to suck it up and to start communicating with the community.

Yeah, I'm fully aware, you're a hermit and you'd rather spend that time working on the game, than posting useless crap on your blog or these forums, but isn't about what you like. If anything, it's about what you love-the very same MMO most of us here pledged for, your brain child. You need a way to keep people and to attract more people, which is really hard to do when they see near dead forums and your blog that gets updated once a year or so. The people see this and they think that the project is either dead or just plain too fishy to invest into it.

I'm part of a huge clan, we play different games, the biggest ones are Hawken, with 20 active players and over whooping 100 active players stuck in grindfest, called Warframe. I've posted about this game on more than few occasions in our forums, but nobody was willing to donate, because in their eyes the game was dead.

Which is why I'm saying this again-you need to start communicating, man! You need to start showing signs of life! And I'm not telling you to write detailed reports or video logs about your progress(although I am suggesting this ;) ). Anything would be fine! Even a small twit on stupid twitter once or twice a week is going to help immensely! And it doesn't even have to be about anything in particular, even random stuff is going to do the trick, although the closer to the dev process, the better. Even small stuff, like for example,"our programmer is a lazy arsehole!"

Even that tiny bit is going to improve population, although sharing which features you're working on is going to have much greater impact and once again-few words are enough.

As or what am I going to do, I'm going to finish that thing I've promised to Herko long time a go and I'm gonna switch back into lurking mode, until another S will hit the fan.


You guys don't have a reputation of handling what you'd consider "bad news" very well so to speak. You wanted to know what was the hold up, I laid it on the line and told you it was because I lost my lead programmer and the response was "quit making excuses".

And "random stuff" also doesn't "do the trick". I was perfectly content to just keep plugging in new assets for people to play with in the prototype while working on the programming situation, right up until the attitude changed to, "Yeah new doors and walls, big deal. We want new features."

And as far as the comment about "people noticing the forums are dead and not investing", statements like those are pretty much just baseless. The only... only... income this project has right now are the people who are just now finding out about the game and email me asking how they can get alpha account status and aren't even aware the devblog or forums exist. It's not like I'm going to say, "And yes when you're done building a mansion, feel free to jump on over to our public forums and troll some."

I'd like you to listen very carefully to everything below this line before you choose to reply, thank you.

Almost half of the 20% of those who voted no (and this is the funny part) several of the "vocal minority" who felt it necessary to voice their opinions are people who have ,as far as i can prove, so far not contributed a dime, whose contributions bounced, or who contributed then before the campaign ended disputed the charge and kept on using their account status until i realized it.

That guy Walkia who "will no longer support the game"? Dude, you never supported it to begin with. Not a dime.
That other guy who said "i had accepted my money was wasted" who I called out? Still waiting to hear where this mystery contribution ended up, because it certainly didn't go to SGL.

You see my friend, don't usually have to know who they are like I do and you also don't have to put up with seeing them lurking around offering their input week after week even though they are pretty much directly responsible for the fact that Divergence didn't get what it needed from kickstarter and the reason we're struggling right now.

Exactly how accommodating do you think you'd be when you hear, "such and such demands a response to their thread on the forums".

You'd probably just ban them outright and be well within your rights to do so.


Dude, you disappear for a long time, without of any thread of news and then pop up saying you need more money. Those who were with you through the KS campaign more or less knew the reason behind the lack of funds, but for others, it caused to raise an eyebrow, to say the least.

So negative reaction was to be expected, considering there was no communication all this time. If there was anything known prior to this, people would've been more understanding and they'd be expecting for this outcome. Not to mention that the majority of people who are used to crowdfounding are also used to receive reports from the project teams, because it gives a sense of security and legitimacy. Because they can track the progress and they may see what they money are being spent for. Most of KS game projects are like that and people are used to expect the same from all the projects.

Besides, you got mixed responses, during the poll. Some people understand that shit happens, some people still trust you no matter what, while others are questioning you and your ability. That is to be expected-people are people.

Now about the campaign...I was among those 20% who voted against new campaign, because starting new one before delivering the promised battle system would be like digging your own grave. However, you specified later that you weren't talking about another fully-fledged campaign, which made things a whole lot more different. Wording is important on internet, one wrong word can bury you and your project, which is why you can't have another campaign, but can and you MUST add a "DONATE" button to your site/forums, which is essentially a continuation of previous campaign. It should allow all those people who keep emailing you to pledge their money, all the while not giving trolls more ammo to use against you.

However, let me just add a thing or two about late backers. Yes they are the only source of income and I'm fully aware that you need more money(like I've said-don't call it campaign and just add a donate button with KS perks), however as I mentioned earlier, they aren't the only ones! You could have so much more donations had you communicated with the community! I managed to convince a guy or two to donate but much more weren't willing to risk because the lack of communications. I'm not pulling this out of my arse, man, I'm telling you the same thing I've been told by others,"no communications, no reports, nobody knows where the money are going, this project looks fishy as hell," it's exactly what a whole bunch of my clanmates told me. And do you know what the irony is? It's the same canmates that play Warframe! Do you know what Warframe is? It's a third person space ninjas grindfest! Sounds kinda familiar, no? Because let's face it-every sandbox is MMO is a grindfest by a design.

So once again map, please-start doing some regular posts/twits/updates/anything(or better-everything, having Facebook page+Twitter is like free advertisement these days), bottom line-don't disappear.

Now, comes the hard part, the one where I did thought long and hard about.

And yeah, some of those guys are jerks, and I was really torn between what would I do in your place about them. At first I wanted to brand those accounts as untrustworthy and make it so everyone would see those brands on their accounts, then I thought about just actively ignoring those guys, but in the end I've pretty much came down to almost the same conclusion as Feydikan did.

Yes, those guys are at fault and some of them are outright jerks, but they're still here! They still waste their time by posting here. That gotta mean one thing-they still give a damn. And while I don't exactly agree with Feydikan about how they're so poor they have no money to donate, I have to agree with him that eventually they are going to shelf out some dough for this game, because they are still here.

So how would I treat them in your place? Like that retarded cousin that you care about because he's family, but don't take him serious, nor trust him at anything, because he's a retard.

In the end, I'd like to say it again man-we're here, we're with you and we're willing to wait as long it's gonna take. So please don't be so defensive and don't be offended by our criticism, it's all there because we care and only wish for this project to succeed. And we'll probably shelf out more cash for it should the chance present itself.

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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby Mikh G » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:46 am

Feydikan wrote:Writing them off or insulting them strikes me like sucking punching a banker for asking questions after you have made your proposal. You are cutting your nose to spite your face, and while they may not have the ability to put into words what they are feeling, or come across course or in a completely negative way, BUT they sure as hell care enough about the project to write the concerns rather then just walk away from it.
<..>
You have NEVER been a part of this community. I have been active daily since April, and the ONLY time you have posted here on a regular basis was when it first came up, indiegogo, and during the Kickstarter.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Ethan, the D:Ommunity basically gave you over $30k and you do not have time to spend 1 day per month communicating with them, seriously? Mate.. I spend time with people that I like free of charge.

On a side note, I've put in a fairly decent sum as you might be aware, it never helped me get any reply from you, so please dont feed us with that 'not a dime but a lot of requests' thing, mkay?

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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby Feydikan » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:15 am

deusex2 wrote:So how would I treat them in your place? Like that retarded cousin that you care about because he's family, but don't take him serious, nor trust him at anything, because he's a retard.



ROFL, couldn't have put it better. :lol:

But to clarify, I didn't mean they were poor, just perhaps unable to put 'real' money into the project. I have been unemployed almost a year. In all reality I should have never put any money into this project since I have been living off savings. But I cut some corners, made some sacrifices and figured out a way to actually put some cash into a project I was thrilled about. While I was able to do this, others may have not been at a time when they could... Hence why a Paypal/donation button with perks like you have suggested is a very good idea.
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Re: So what are you guys going to do now?....

Postby Herko Kerghans » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:36 am

EthanC wrote:That guy Walkia who "will no longer support the game"? Dude, you never supported it to begin with. Not a dime.


Ethan... with all due respect, mate: without having read Walkia´s comment I don´t know the context, but,

> In this very same forums, you can see walkia17´s (I assume you are talking about him) thread titled: Why are you Loyal?

I mean, the guy started that thread. And mate... if that´s not support, what is?

You know me, man, so please, please, PLEASE take this from somebody trying to offer his most constructive feedback: if that´s not support, and by "support" you only mean "money"... how does it make you look like?

But if what you want is both moral and financial support, just read what the guy says on the OP of that thread:

t\The guy [that would be you, Ethan] cant get a fucken break, can he? This is why I still bother with this project, not because of the game but because of the guy making it. When I first came apon this game, I was very skeptical whether this guy was legit or a con artist. It took a lot for me to donate to the game because of my lack of trust for other people and you know what, I don't regret it a bit. I know that, because of his determination, his tenacity to get this project done, that I have found a person truly worth my trust and time.


Mate... why would the guy lie, back in october, about having contributed to the game, in a thread he himself makes in your support? Calling you "a person truly worth my trust and time"?

If that´s not a die-hard fan, what is?


> Now, going on just a hunch and a bit of guesswork: on the Kickstarter comments we had a die-hard troll by the name of Greg Paul. You probably remember him in your hope-you-die prayers: the guy hated your guts, and publicly declared that had contributed just one dollar so that he could trash you.

On the other hand, there were of course several that defended your position. Among those, one of the most ardent was one guy by the name Walkia Lion; he was in fact so ardent that Greg Paul the troll actually accused him to be you:

Greg Paull on Aug 23

Fact:
Walkia Lyon = Ethan Ash Casner



And of course I could be totally off base, but by reading walkia17 and Walkia Lyon comments, they do strike me as written by the same person.

Mate... isn´t there a chance that you are making a mistake here? People may use different e-mail accounts for a public forum and a place where they want to enter sensitive information.



Please think about this, mate: if somebody ardently and vocally supports you, and starts a thread specifically in your support, and a few months laters he is angry with you, maybe it´s because he is having a bad week ´cos he lost his job, or his wife left, or his cat died...

... but shouldn´t you at least consider the possibility that the guy went from supporter to trasher due to you doing (at least in his honest view) something not entirely correct?

As usual... no offense!! Seriously!! Just trying to do my best to point out that sometimes the tree does obscure the forest.

Peace!! :D


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